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richard.a
New Member
Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 7
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Nikos wrote: | | As
far as I am concerned there is no need to categorize crime on the law
books by motive. That is dealt with in the jury room where it should be
dealt with. I believe the present laws are sufficient to deal with all
these problems. |
Nikos this is the line taken by the opposition party's spokesman for
law and order in South Australia, in her very lengthy opposing speech
to the Attorney-General's introduction to his proposed legislation.
Our state opposition has a qualified attorney as this elected
member of the Lower state house (which is where government is seated
here, the upper house always being a "House of Review").
Feedback from the Australian State of Victoria's newspapers shows
increasingly questions being asked along similar lines, from those
legislators who were steamrollered into passing the legislation in the
first place, and from eloquent reporters, and even from other states;
hopefully when the bill is reintroduced (which the is bound to happen
because it is on the platform of the currently ruling party) there will
have been sufficient of an uproar to defeat it before it goes any
further.
Let us hope in the time that elapses in the U.S.A. between the
voting in the Reps chamber, and the bill being presented in the Senate,
that your "House of Review" will see wisdom in sending the bill back,
rejected.
In South Australia we found it essential to keep lobbying the people elected, who can be persuaded to vote in the way you want them to vote. So you good chaps in the States, get on your bikes and tell them that you put them in power to say "No"  
Richard
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clytemnestra
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Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 192
Location: NC
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Father Onesimus wrote: | My
boy, you have SO MUCH to learn about how governments actually operate.
They have a nasty tendency to GROOOOOOWWWWW; to arrogate more and more
power to themselves at the expense of the liberties of the people.
If not resisted at every step, soon there is true tyrrany. This hate
speach law is just like Canada's and Sweden's WHERE PASTORS ARE ALREADY
IN TROUBLE WITH THE LAW FOR PREACHING THE WORD OF GOD.
Please don't come here just to play the disingenuous fool.......... |
Absolutely false. This is NOT a law against free speech like the
hate speech laws of Canada and Sweden. This is a complete
misrepresentation by the Tyrannical Values Coalition and others.
The present hate crimes law allows federal assistance to apprehend the perpetrator of a violent crime
motivated by hatred based on race, religion, gender or ethnicity, and
enhanced sentencing if this is proven to be the case. Notice that a violent crime has to have occurred before this law takes effect.
HR 1592 says that if a violent crime is motivated by hatred based on sexual orientation, gender identity or disability, this violent crime will be treated the same as a violent crime based on race, religion, gender or ethnicity.
This expansion of the hate crimes categories has nothing to do with
speech expressing an opinion at all. Only speech that incites violence
is a crime, and this is and was true well before any hate crimes
legislation was enacted. Inciting violence would still be a crime
whether HR 1592 were enacted or not.
Using examples from countries that do not have our first amendment
guarantee of free speech, just goes to show how desperate some are to
maintain their right to promote hatred of gays. They claim to be
Christian, yet insult Christ and His teachings in how we treat others.
No wonder many equate "Christian" with "hateful." |
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richard.a
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Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 7
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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clytemnestra
it is my opinion, based on what has happened elsewhere, that you are
being naiive to think that manipulation of the wording of the act by
faceless bureaucrats won't take place.
We do have a guarantee of free speech, but this is being eroded by legislation, just as yours is.
I see little point in pursuing your points further because I doubt that you have adequately researched this.
We who have it around us, who have examined it closely and fought
it - or in the case of the Victorians who fought it and lost it because
of the naiivity of their legislators would likely agree with the writer
of the original article.
We even had our Attorney-General express his thoughts that "never
during his holding office" would there be problems... that was the best
guarantee he could offer that there wouldn't be problems in the future,
which wasn't exactly encouraging, because in the same batch of
interviews, the bureaucrat responsible for administering the
legislation made the point that she would prosecute.
clytemnestra I honestly think there is insufficient time now for
the USA to reinvent the wheel before your senate vote is required.
Can't you just accept the fact that those where this legislation is
currently a reality do really know what we are talking about? And that
you can't always trust all bureaucrats to administer legislation in the
spirit in which it was possible drawn up?
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clytemnestra
Active Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 192
Location: NC
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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richard.a,
You still imply that this is a law about speech, like the one you refer to in England.
HR 1592 is about hate crimes against a "despised" minority, members of the LGBT community. No underlying violent crime, no added penalty.
Would you mind clarifying this?  |
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flygirljc
New Member
Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 2
Location: OKLAHOMA CITY, OKLAHOMA
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 12:01 am Post subject: ALIEN JUSTICE |
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Today's Word
Saturday, May 5, 2007
Alien Justice
You shall not show favoritism in judgment; you shall adjudicate exactly
alike for the small and the great. You shall not be afraid of man,
because judgment belongs to God Deuteronomy 1:17
Judgment – In Hebrew thought, no principle of justice is more
important than this one. This verse removes judgment from the realm of
men. All judgment belongs to God. He sets the standard. He holds men
accountable to it. He administers it. Even though He may appoint human
agents and even though He may specify particular consequences, in the
end all justice rests on His shoulders.
Why does this matter to us? The answer is startling. In our
contemporary society, we no longer act as though God retains justice as
His own. We live in a Greek-based culture where the rule of law is the
final arbiter. The problem is that in the Greek system, law expresses
the will of the people. That means that the law is subject to change –
and we have clearly seen that occur over and over as we move further
away from the Commandments and their application. Under the Greek
system, the people exert pressure on legislators to alter the law to
fit their desires. Under the Hebrew system, men were not to cower to
such pressure because God owns judgment. When I succumb to the will of
men rather than uphold the law of God, I act as though God is no longer
Lord of all. I insult the Lord of the universe. He does not forget it.
Mishpat is translated almost 300 times in Scripture as “judgment.”
This might make us think that God exercises the court functions of
government, but that would be misleading. In ancient tribal cultures,
the figurehead of the tribe (the tribal chief) was not simply the final
arbiter. He had oversight of all aspects of governance. All branches of
civil authority were his. This is the context of shapat, the verbal
root of “judgment.” God is the chief, the elder of His people. His word
rules every aspect of governance. He speaks the law, administers the
law and executes justice under the law. He is the ultimate and final
patriarch. To violate His law is tantamount to committing treason.
Because we live under a Greek legal system, we can hardly imagine the
God would not be “democratic.” What a fatal mistake that is! God is
King, not President. His subjects do not have the right to ignore,
question or excuse His governance. Yet we routinely act as though God’s
revealed truth in the torah (the Law) no longer has relevance for us.
Who are we kidding? Are you going to stand before the One Who owns
justice and say, “But I didn’t think it mattered anymore?”
By Skip Moen: http://www.atgodstable.com
_________________
Ms. Jan Carver
When we come to the edge of the light
we know and are about to step off into the darkness
of the unknown, of this we can be sure...
Either God will provide something solid to stand on, or we will be taught to
fly. |
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anthony
Active Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 618
Location: u.k
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 12:38 am Post subject: |
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Interesting.The
laws are crafted by mainly unrighteous people,lets pray for the
believing politicians to stand up and be counted instead of caving in
to the PC lobby.
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Remain a blessing dear ones .tony |
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Nikos
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Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 465
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 12:51 am Post subject: |
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Excellent post, flygirl. The article makes a lot of sense.
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The Power Behind Us Is Greater Than The Task Before Us. |
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Lucy W. Roberts
Active Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 486
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 1:11 am Post subject: |
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Yeah,
Cly is a lap dog looking for blood...she preaches don't hate but she
hates God, His Truth and us for saying it...over and over again
refusing the Truth, blaming us for the very hatred she possesses, and
instead of bowing to the truth and humbling herself to God, His Holy
Word, Romans 1 "For they know the Truth about God, for God has made it
evident to them, but they neither worship God nor thank Him...instead
they trade the Truth of God for a lie... She calls it "hate" crimes to
love God and His Word!!! And she sees this kind of attention, in
correction, as a feeding opportunity to try and empower her lies more.
She has no intention of turning to the Lord, His Word, His truth, and
lies when she says she is a Christian. This spirit operating in her
wants to cause more hatred for God and His very own. And she has the
gall to say we hate when we've done nothing but present the truth to
her to save her soul! Go figure! By now she should be sorely ashamed of
her rebellious perversion, but she brags about being of the perverted
one and "loves" her perversion, sad to say...  ...maybe the good Lord Jesus will have mercy on her lying soul and show her His Truth! amen.
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Kreseniya
Active Member
Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 73
Location: The Heartland
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 1:25 am Post subject: |
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Human
justice is capable of only judging actions. It can prosecute crimes,
but it cannot prosecute thought. Limited allowances for intent may be
made because there is a difference between the driver who is distracted
by a sudden loud noise and hits a pedestrian and another driver who
deliberately runs someone down or between a mentally retarded person
who is enticed by another into committing a crime and the person who
knows full well what he is doing. The very concept of hate-crime
legislation or hate-crime enhancers is an attempt to police thought, to
usurp judgment of the heart which is God's prerogative. If an action
that violates a law occurs, then prosecute it, but prosecute it fairly.
There is no need for any hate-crime laws
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...While grey-gowned Patience sits at home and weaves the stuff they wear.
Last edited by Kreseniya on Sun May 06, 2007 3:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Lucy W. Roberts
Active Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 486
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 1:40 am Post subject: |
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AMen. 
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clytemnestra
Active Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 192
Location: NC
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| Kreseniya wrote: | | Human
justice is capable of only judging actions. It can prosecute crimes,
but it cannot prosecute thought. Limited allowances for intent may be
made because there is a difference between the driver who is distracted
by a sudden loud noise and hits a pedestrian and another driver who
deliberately runs someone down or between a mentally retarded person
who is enticed by another into committing a crime and the person who
knows full well what he is doing. The very concept of hate-crime
legislation or hate-crime enhancers is an attempt to police thought, to
usurp judgment of the heart which is God's prerogative. If an action
that violates a law occurs, then prosecute it, but prosecute it fairly.
There is no need for any hate-crime laws |
Law can judge more than actions. The difference between murder and
manslaughter is intent. What was going through the person's mind at the
time. So it can prosecute "thought." Your example of the two drivers
goes right to this point.
The justification for hate crime laws is that some crimes are not just
directed towards an individual, but also toward the whole group the
individual is in. Some crimes against Jews, or Blacks or gays are
intending to send the message that no one like you is welcome here.
Since this type of crime is against a whole group, as well as the individual, a stiffer penalty is appropriate.
The FBI report for hate crimes in 2005 (latest available) finds 16%
against Blacks, 14% against Hispanics and 14% against those perceived
to be gay. Yet Blacks outnumber gays by 3 to 1 and Hispanics by 6 to 1.
So the net effect on gays is far greater than those groups who are
already included in the 1968 law.
Then we have religious groups who recently claim that hate crime
laws are unnecessary, that every violent crime is a "hate" crime, so
all should be treated the same. OMG Where were these people for the
last 38 years when the law favored those who were attacked for their
faith? Now, they suddenly decide that the preference they've long
enjoyed shouldn't be extended to others? It's been a big mistake all
this time? Pleeeze!
As long as we allow people to say hateful things about gays, we
need this legislation to deter others from turning this hate into
action. |
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Lucy W. Roberts
Active Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 486
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 5:34 am Post subject: |
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No,
we do not agree...we do not allow this "legislation" of our right to
proclaim Jesus, His laws, His decrees, His Truth. We will proclaim the
Truth about God, His Holy Word, and we command that your voice and your
mouth is stopped! We will proclaim LOUDLY the Truth of the Living God,
and we will pray and agree that what He has declared abomination to Him
IS abomination! No. Absolutely not! We will not give our agreement nor
our approval to disobedience to God and His Word...He is God alone!
God's Word is Truth! And no matter how hard you try to kick against the
truth you will only stub your toe! We are keepers of the Truth and we
are not budging.
As the Psalmist David prays in Psalm 139, "Lord, do I not hate what you
hate...I count your enemies my enemies!" Amen. Lord, we do not tolerate
or agree with this abominable sin nor with those who want to enforce it
legally...forgive us, Lord, and turn our eyes to Your Holy Statutes.
Lord, we will agree with You and Your Holy Word all of the days of our
lives. We take this vile spirit, this rebellious lawless spirit and we
send you back to the pit where you came from! You cannot have our
children, you cannot have our nation, you cannot oppose the Kingdom of
the Most High God. We are pushing you back to the pit where you came
from. We are not giving up this territory, we are taking it back! Get
thee behind me satan...you cannot deceive and cultivate more grounds
for deception any longer...get back off of God's property...the Lord
rebuke you! In Jesus! Amen.
Let God be God and every man a liar!
God's Word to you is the Truth. You will bow to Him! Amen.
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Arise, shine, for your Light has come, and the Glory of the Lord is risen upon you! |
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clytemnestra
Active Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 192
Location: NC
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 8:34 am Post subject: |
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Lucy,
Perhaps if you let Jesus' love fill your heart, it will dispell the fear and help you be rid of this obsessive hatred of gays. |
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anthony
Active Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 618
Location: u.k
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 8:37 am Post subject: |
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No one hates you people we just do not think you have the right to rule the planet.
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Remain a blessing dear ones .tony |
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richard.a
New Member
Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 7
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Perhaps if you let Jesus' love fill your heart, it will dispell the fear and help you be rid of this obsessive hatred of gays. |
Ummm I think cly might belong to the grouping of people who doesn't
understand that God and His followers actually hate the sin, rather
than the sinner?
Most unbelievers appear to fail to grasp the difference, after all.
Edit... added
In my country, a decent discussion on something like this always seems
to end up with someone throwing around the "you hate homosexuals" line,
which is a pathetic red herring designed to stir the heart-strings of
discrimination.
Oh, and let's call it by the right name, too, and not by the
politically correct euphemism of "gay" or "lesbian" - both are
homosexuals (of one gender or the other), just as both male and female
people who aren't are obviously "heterosexual". Please, let us not hide
behind nice sounding words and labels which distract.
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Last edited by richard.a on Sun May 06, 2007 9:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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