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anthony
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Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 711
Location: u.k
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 Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks
Richard for a very edifying reply.I guess in the context of the subject
some churches will have nothing to worry about,but just to confuse the
issue ,some righteous outspoken pastors will feel their collars well
and truely gripped by the PC thought police.Happy days are on their
way. 
_________________
Remain a blessing dear ones .tony |
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Shalomit
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Joined: 04 Feb 2007
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 11:12 pm Post subject: Can We Build It? Yes We Can! |
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Really
my point is that certain kinds of sin are more gracefully accepted by
clergy and laypeople alike. I read about that gentleman in Atlanta who
has repeatedly been involved in sex scandals, yet his church community
kept him on in the pastorate. I am assuming it is because they enjoyed
his charismatic personality or something to that effect. In the recent
past of the American church (I can’t speak for anywhere else) there
have been different high profile ministers caught lying, stealing,
cheating, and committing sexual sins. Obviously it hasn’t ever been
properly addressed or it wouldn’t be such a pervasive problem. My point
in bringing that up is that as I mentioned earlier the church tends to
rail against and vilify gays and lesbians like it is the ONLY sin in
the world worth taking a stand against. It just seems ludicrous to me.
There are obviously many people in the church who are not yet
saved, and there are saved ones that are struggling to overcome the
flesh. One of the other points I was trying to convey is that if
ordinary people struggle with the “simple” things insofar as being
Christ-like (patience, love, mercy, etc.), then how much more so when a
person has some other kind of serious bondage such as alcoholism or
sexual addiction or whatever? This is why I advocate for a leadership
that is pure of heart. Power doesn’t come to people (at least the
effectual power of the Holy Spirit) unless that person is submitted and
obedient to God.
3”Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
4He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
5He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation” – Psalm 24:3-5.
And : “The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much” – James 5:16b.
There are a lot of tricks and false signs and wonders these days
because people covet positions and titles but do not want to make the
necessary sacrifices in order to sow and reap holiness into their
lives. I’m not saying this to point fingers or get up on a
self-righteous bandwagon, I’m saying it because I believe that as a
body we could be a lot more effective if we shunned flashiness, and
lived simple, holy lives.
I think that sometimes the church is a very toxic environment. I know
it’s very confusing to unbelievers and even novice believers struggling
to apprehend the reality of Christ in their lives. A woman I work with
said she wished she could bring her children to church, but there’s
quite a bit of trouble in her family life. She said, “The church wants
you to be there every time the doors are opened, and they want you to
give, give, give of your money, and your time, and your life, but as
soon as they find out you have problems, and need help, then you are a
pariah if you have some problems in your life that tarnish the church
public image.” What can you tell a person like that? It’s sad, but
true, and people with small children who are struggling don’t always
have the time and the means to go from church to church looking for a
safe place.
I’m not angry about anything, I just find it annoying that ALL of this
other stuff goes on unaddressed, yet the church feels it must go on a
witch hunt when it comes to gays and lesbians. I have lots of gay and
lesbian friends that I’d love to bring to a church where they could
really encounter Christ and people dedicated to Him and to His cause.
But I’ve not found that place, or found that level of love. I just
don’t see why the church is so threatened by different types of sinners
more than others. If the wages of sin is death then it doesn’t matter
what type of sin a person has committed the result is spiritual
separation from God and hell in the next life. If a people feel that
their particular brand of sin is perceived as more scary and dangerous
than other types of problems, then we have then created an imbalanced
community where exists a “spiritual leper colony.”
My aforementioned friend has an alcoholic, bi-polar husband that
refuses to take meds. He is abusive and occasionally likes to beat the
$#!@ out of his family. I guess the church doesn’t really like to deal
with those kinds of problems because they are messy and make people
uncomfortable. I have no idea why because if we live in this world we
are going to see bad things. Jesus said, “In this world you will have
many troubles, but FEAR NOT, for I have OVERCOME the world.” If we
believe in Him we know that what is impossible with man is possible
with God. ALL things are possible for him who believes.
The church should be a safe haven. It should welcome the sinner, the
victim, the perpetrator, the afflicted, the shamed, and the suffering
and then proceed to TEACH deliverance, submission, healing,
sanctification, comfort, and all those other good things. Is everyone
going to respond, or even grow at the same pace? No, but I think
something that is very integral to the success of such a “spiritual
hospital” would be that those who learn to overcome and “graduate” from
“spiritual medical school” would be PURE in heart and able to rightly
handle the Word of Truth and the Power of the Spirit. That’s my point
really.
AND if we do what we are suppose to do as Christ commanded we are not
going to be able to avoid confrontations with unrighteous goverments or
"thought police" or whatever. This isn't something we must fear, and it
is inevitable that we come into conflict with the powers that be
(seeing that the powers that be are rulers of this dark age, powers,
principalities, and wickedness in high places, etc.). However when that
wicked day comes I for one want to be able to stand with a clean
conscience knowing that I know Christ, have loved Him, and have loved
my neighbor as myself. I want to know in my heart that I have told the
truth without having been a hateful crackpot who defamed the name of
Christ and the cross with my unlovely attitude. We don't have to worry
even if we have to die because
6This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
7Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
8Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.
9Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
10Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah. (Psalm 24:6-10). |
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Shalomit
Active Member
Joined: 04 Feb 2007
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 11:21 pm Post subject: For Lucy |
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Lucy, I enjoy reading your posts. They really encourage me. You should
write a devotional. I'd definitely buy it. Consider what I am saying
because God has given you a gift to exposit upon His Word in a very
practical way that would help lots of other "ordinary losers" such as
myself. I especially liked the one called "Overcoming Spiritual
Adultery." I copied it into a Word file in case everyone started
arguing again and the administrator takes it away. |
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Lucy W. Roberts
Active Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 604
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Shalomit wrote: | | 10Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah. (Psalm 24:6-10). |
Yes, He is...amen!
Thank you for that encouragement! Maybe the Lord is letting me "sow" for free...freely you have received, freely give!
Maybe He will add the blessing!
God bless you! 
Off to work!
Lucy
_________________
Arise, shine, for your Light has come, and the Glory of the Lord is risen upon you! |
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clytemnestra
Active Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 223
Location: NC
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 3:12 am Post subject: |
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| Lucy W. Roberts wrote: | richard.a and Yagudin...y'all are blessing me so good! thank you, sirs.
CLy...Repenting and getting saved has absolutely NOTHING to do with
being treated like second class citizens. It has everything to do with
gaining citizenship in heaven forever!
Get saved, ask Jesus to save you, and He will, and you will want nothing to do with darkness! Amen? |
Accept Jesus our Savior in your heart, and follow His teachings and
example when it comes to how we treat others, including our neighbors
who are lesbian and gay.
cly |
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clytemnestra
Active Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 223
Location: NC
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 4:31 am Post subject: |
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| richard.a wrote: | Thank you Lucy, appreciated.
Cly, I wonder how you would feel being treated like a second class citizen purely because you are female? |
Isn't that what Southern Baptist wives are instructed to do when they are told to "submit to your husbands?"
| Quote: | And
then, because you are behaving unlawfully in the views of the Islamic
Allah, in say Indonesia, Iran, Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, or some of
the African countries...
Demonstrating your current attitude towards those about to stone
you, slit your throat, or less likely having a quick bullet put through
your heart or head wouldn't do you much good either my dear. |
Ah, I've heard this one before. Sit back and take being treated as
second class citizens because, at least, we're not stoning you to
death. Well, thanks for not stoning to death the 5% of the population
who are not born with a heterosexual orientation, but sorry, that's
just not good enough. My children deserve to have the same rights and
protections as the children of heterosexual couples have.
And using the derogatory phrase "my dear" is not something I would expect from a gentleman like you.
| Quote: | The
world is a real place. We are faced with real problems that need
fixing. Bleating about perceived injustices when real problems are
occurring all around is rather pointless imho. Wasting others time
without listening doesn't usually win many friends, and your effort is
then in vain as people with less patience than I  won't bother reading it. |
Oh, the world is a real place, all right. That's why I carry mace on my
key chain in case the insidious misinformation you spread about gays is
manifest in a direct threat of violence against me. If you think that
adding sexual orientation and gender identity to hate crimes
legislation isn't necessary, then try living as a lesbian in North
Carolina for a while.
I'm a Christian because I follow Jesus' teachings and example in
the conduct of my life and in the way I treat others. If you wish to do
otherwise, then please find another label for your unrighteous
behavior. Calling yourself a Christian isn't apt when you treat members
of the LGBT community as you do.
cly |
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clytemnestra
Active Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 223
Location: NC
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| TransformingWord wrote: | | Some people like there sin...let them enjoy it...didnt the bible say in the last day people will be drinking and MARRYING Lol. |
Jesus taught us, "love one another as I have loved you." It's not a
sin to love my sweetie and our children. It's what Jesus taught us to
do.
As to your question about whether I'm hurt by some comments, I always remember this from Matthew 5:
| Quote: | |
11 "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely
say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be
glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they
persecuted the prophets who were before you. |
I will never be deterred from teaching Jesus' message by those who
claim that "love thy neighbor" doesn't include members of the LGBT
community.
cly |
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clytemnestra
Active Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 223
Location: NC
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| showlove wrote: | | No
great revelation here Cly. I also agree that no one should be
discriminated against in housing or employment. There is no need to add
gays to the list as if they suffer more than others in this area. All
people are covered without an amendment that singles out homosexuals. |
Well, then, are you willing to give up the original legislation that
protects people who are singled out due to their religion? A little
consistency here would be appreciated.
cly |
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showlove
Active Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2007
Posts: 259
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 5:16 am Post subject: Re: Sin is Sin |
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| Shalomit wrote: | .
Personally, I do not care if gays and lesbians are in the church
with me. They are people who like all people need to know Jesus Christ.
They aren’t any different than the rest of us who struggle with having
too little patience, too little mercy, too little love, too much
hypocrisy, etc. I
mean, the church is full of honking fat obese people, but you sure as
heck never hear hardly a PEEP about the sin of gluttony. However, you
ALWAYS hear people harping about homosexuality. Maybe if the
church were consistently tolerant and even loving of ALL sinful people
without exception then more would be accomplished. And at least be FAIR
and give equal time in sermons to all the different types of sin
instead of singling out one kind and making it the horrible, abominable
sin thus creating classes and hierarchy within the ranks of the sinners
in the Body of Christ.
I don’t know why the church has this fixation with homosexuals. They
totally don’t bother me. Let them worship and learn, and God will do
the rest. Is every sinner going to be saved? I wish it were so but it
won’t happen. Sin is sin no matter what shape, size, or form.
I’m not saying it should be in the pulpit (but God Almighty the pulpit
is full of it anyway and what an embarrassment that is to me), but if
it’s in the congregation we shouldn’t be freaked out about it. Sinners
should go to church just like sick people should go to the doctor.
Church – treat all sin the same. |
I feel your heart on this matter Shalomit. And I agree with you on several points.
IMO the reason that homosexuality is at the forefront is that unlike
the other sinners in church gays do not accept that they are in sin.
Rather than change many, as Carlton Pearson encouraged them to do,
are there to "infiltrate" and work within to change the doctrine of the
church to the acceptance of homosexuality.
It has gotten to the point that there are some homosexuals who
boldly flaunt their homosexual relationships and dare anyone in the
church to come against them. There is no adulterers lobby, no liars
lobby, no fornicators lobby working to bring acceptance of these sins.
Most people involved in theses sins are aware and accept the fact that
they are in sin. As I am sure you know, and this thread bears witness,
homosexuals today want to not only change church doctrine they want to
outlaw language in churches, schools and media that declares that
homosexuality is sin. If you cannot see this assault for what it is
then God help us all.
I will not bury my head in the sand of political correctness!
Most of all I want to address the deception that all sin is equal.
IMO this lie is the backbone or at the very least a major plank in the
platform of the gay agenda as it pertains to their offensive to change
the perspective of the church and the world.
Despite what many have preached, all sins are not equal!
There was a time when the church was overly judgmental and every darn thing was a mortal sin in their view.
A new breed of preachers came along, many of them childhood victims of
this overly judgmental attitude, and tried to a correct this negative
stereotype. Their intentions may have been good but they swung the
pendulum too far in the other direction.
So much so that, as we see on these threads, the devil has been given
the upper hand. He, the enemy of our souls, has saints afraid to speak
out against sin for fear of being labeled "judgmental". Or, even worst,
many good saints, realizing their own imperfections, are convinced that
since they are not perfect, then they cannot address willful,
deliberate, egregious and on-going lifestyles of sin. The devil is a
LIAR!
While it is best that ones' own life provide a certain level of MORAL AUTHORITY (gee, that is almost an archaic concept  ) nevertheless an adulterer can still declare that adultery is wrong! The truth is the truth no matter who says it.
Finally, again all sin is not equal. All sins are not unto death.
Sure our Father, like any father, would prefer, for our own good,
that His children not sin at all. But to say that all sin is equal
would be like comparing a parking ticket, which is a transgression of
the law, with vehicular manslaughter, also a transgression of the law.
God wishes none of us become ill. But a cold is not the equivalent of cancer.
Comparing gluttony, not a sin unto death, to homosexuality, a sin which is unto death, is like comparing speeding to murder.
THE PENALTY IS NOT THE SAME!
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to
obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death,
or of obedience unto righteousness?
1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death,
he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto
death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
I repeat, I will not bury my head in the sand of political correctness!
Last edited by showlove on Wed May 16, 2007 8:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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showlove
Active Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2007
Posts: 259
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| clytemnestra wrote: | | showlove wrote: | | No
great revelation here Cly. I also agree that no one should be
discriminated against in housing or employment. There is no need to add
gays to the list as if they suffer more than others in this area. All
people are covered without an amendment that singles out homosexuals. |
Well, then, are you willing to give up the original legislation that
protects people who are singled out due to their religion? A little
consistency here would be appreciated.
cly |
Nope.
Neither do I believe that there need be a specific amendment for
gays. You are already covered by the original wording. There is no
clause that excludes gays and allowes you to be discriminated against.
Many gays have won legal battles for their rights based on the wording as it already is. |
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Lucy W. Roberts
Active Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 604
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 7:44 am Post subject: |
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Maybe it's the churches I go to, but I've never
heard anyone ridiculed nor reviled for any of the sins they may be
in...I've never heard any particular subset of people be singled out
and talked against. I've only heard Jesus being lifted up and how to
know Him better...so, I don't really understand, where are all of these
churches/pastors who are putting sinners down? I never hear it, since
1989 when Jesus stepped into my living room and revealed Himself to me
and saved and delivered me to now, I've never
heard any particular "sinner" put down for being in sin...not
fornicators, not adulterers, not homosexuals, not gluttonists, not
gossips, not murders...but I have heard the merciful heart of God
brought forth to whoever would receive His merciful love.
I can qualify and say I went to Vineyard from late 80's-mid 90's and
then various charismatic churches in a small town where there was no
Vineyard in the late 90's and then Word Alive International Outreach in
northeast Alabama from 2000-05, under Kent Mattox who was with Benny
Hinn ministries for 10 years, and now Foursquare under Jack Hayford and
my wonderful Pastors @ Victory Christian Center in Houston.
NONE of the Pastors at any of these churches ever felt motivated by
preaching down at some to feel righteous or gain support, and none of
them have ever
advocated hating anyone! THey all, in fact, were very supportive of
anyone who came to them to know Jesus! And no one was ever "cast out."
The premise that "preaching" creates hate is way overdramatized by
Hollywood, media and those who are simply ignorant of what Jesus can do
in your life.
Let me say it another way! REAL preachers/pastors who are called by God
to lead in these last days are not needing politically motivated
"social taboo props" such as denominationalism or "we're on this team
because we believe this" to bolster their position or leadership,
because Holy Spirit is leading them and the congregation to more and
more awareness of Him and His mercy and truth!
I've never heard "hate mongers" at any of the churches I've attended!
I've been welcomed, received, cared for and prayed over in agreement
with Jesus' desire for me. Even if misunderstood or disappointed at
times, Jesus Himself held me near and kept me close to His heart and
taught me to be strong in Him! I've never heard "hate" others or
certain groups or any advocating of division in any form. It's
preposterous to assert that churches preach to hate certain groups.
It's too much hollywood dramatization and dichotomization of certain
groups...media drives way too much of our interpretations! We let media
grasp our attention rather than focus on Jesus.
Aren't you tired of media "driving" people and programming us to
see things "their" way? In the same way, political activists like Cly
and certain newsgroups develop a "platform" on something considered
divisive or unfair and milk it for all it's worth when the extremes of
the position aren't even truly that extreme. In other words...to be
blunt...some redneck kids born to racist dads who don't even go to
church beat up a gay person and it's somehow the church's fault? Or a
religious-spirited person says hateful things, and the entire church is
held responsible...Uh-uh! These are acts Jesus spoke against! We need
to bring the focus where the focus belongs...on Jesus our Savior who
delivers us from divisive, hateful, carnal sensuality of "team"
mentality. He calls us to look at one another and lost souls
"differently." We are to see the Body of Christ as "one" and lost souls
as potentially His sheep, period.
"For your Father in heaven is not willing that any one of these little ones should perish." Jesus Christ
_________________
Arise, shine, for your Light has come, and the Glory of the Lord is risen upon you! |
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richard.a
Active Member
Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 33
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| clytemnestra wrote: | | Well,
then, are you willing to give up the original legislation that protects
people who are singled out due to their religion? A little consistency
here would be appreciated. |
I believe your question shows that you don't read what others post, and
merely keep shouting "hate, hate, hate", clytemnestra. Please explain
why this appears to be the case.
It has been explained that the extra clauses inserted into this
redrafted bill both can, and in all likelihood will be turned against
Christianity, specifically in regard to freedom to speak of biblical
content, as has occurred in all other countries where it has been
implemented.
Now I have a question - which I doubt if you are likely to answer,
because to date you haven't answered any direct questions asked by
anybody.
Out of interest, do you attend one of the Metropolitan Community Churches?
And out of interest, is your preferred translation of the Bible the
3rd Edition of the "New Oxford Annotated Bible" aka the NRSV?
Richard
_________________
Have you noticed editing is always needed for the inevitable typos that weren't there when you hit the "post" button?
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anthony
Active Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 711
Location: u.k
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 8:34 am Post subject: |
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Showlove,good points,good post, thanks 
_________________
Remain a blessing dear ones .tony |
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Lucy W. Roberts
Active Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 604
Location: Houston, Texas
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 Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 8:46 am Post subject: |
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Cly, your snide remarks about Baptists and "submissive women" sound like hate crimes to me...
Maybe you should ask Jesus to save you through and through instead
of use His Name, while not knowing Him in person, as a militant weapon
in the media war you are waging...
Did you read the post above, o unsaved one? Maybe you could learn
something? And like Richard said, show some respect, if you yet still
have the ability, and actually read the posts before you answer...
Pro 18:13 He who answers a matter before he hears [it], It [is] folly and shame to him.
_________________
Arise, shine, for your Light has come, and the Glory of the Lord is risen upon you! |
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Lucy W. Roberts
Active Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 604
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| Showlove wrote: | 1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
I repeat, I will not bury my head in the sand of political correctness! |
Amen.
_________________
Arise, shine, for your Light has come, and the Glory of the Lord is risen upon you! |
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